2024-08-27 18:42 UTC
Replies (34)
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@kissane@mas.to 2024-08-27 18:47
And even if you’re SUPER PURE along one vector, you’re always going to miss some other one someone feels very motivated to discipline you about. And this must be okay for some people! But I try very hard to live in a state of at least partial uncertainty, because the alternative is a real vulnerability to Going Bad without realizing it. The downside of that stance is that shit just doesn’t roll off. This is true for a lot of us, I think—maybe artists most of all, bc art requires sensitivity.
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@pooserville@dice.camp 2024-08-27 18:47
@kissane@mas.to And because we *do* care about resisting these things, those accusations of moral failure have potential to sting us in a way that “normie” folks wouldn’t feel at all.
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@jkent@xoxo.zone 2024-08-27 18:47
@kissane@mas.to amen, been struggling with this idea a lot recently. The purity tests result in an inordinate amount of -this is why we can't have nice things-
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@JMarkOckerbloom@mastodon.social 2024-08-27 18:53
@kissane@mas.to I agree with that And each of us also encounters others who make it clear that the norm refusal we care about isn't, as far as they're concerned, worth caring about. Sometimes it's said explicitly; sometimes it's implicit but still apparent in what they say. That can be stressful too, with enough scale and repetition. It's not something I think can be eliminated in wide discussions, for various reasons, but it's worth remembering (esp. when my own posts might heighten that feeling).
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@feelnotes@alaskan.social 2024-08-27 18:59
@kissane@mas.to @skinnylatte@hachyderm.io Agree with this but would also add – moral purity (good vs. evil dichotomous thinking) is a trait of White/European culture. There’s a great book called “White Bound” by Matthew Hughey, who spent a year in embedded in both a White antiracist organization and a White supremacist group. Members of *both* groups (White antiracists and neo-nazis) were very preoccupied with demonstrating ideological purity to their group’s mission.
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@hm02@misskey.social 2024-08-27 19:00
@kissane@mas.to "Don't let Perfect be the enemy of Good."
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@bearsong@ravenation.club 2024-08-27 19:02
thanks for sharing @kissane@mas.to one perspective that i find really helpful is chatacterised by: "if something is worth doing, it's worth doing half arsed" trying, and valuing trying, and doing some is so important. every effort, every hope, every positive step is a thing. learning and trying to be who you (i, we) want to be, whilst loving and nurturing the slips and stumbles on the way never let the impossibility of idealised perfection stop us from trying to get on okay, compromising as we go
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@vashbear@hachyderm.io 2024-08-27 19:25
@kissane@mas.to Well said! Prioritization of multiple issues can polarize on a single issue that people agree on. On a single issue, Alice and Bob might agree completely with one another. But then...there might be 9 other issues that Bob believes are relatively more important. Now suddenly, there seems to be a big gap between Alice and Bob on that original issue.
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@libramoon@mastodon.social 2024-08-27 19:30
@kissane@mas.to I feel no need nor desire to be pure I contain multitudes, each with their own moods and peeves
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@bocan@infosec.exchange 2024-08-27 19:32
@kissane@mas.to I'd love to know the generational makeup of those people popping up. I have a theory but don't feel like getting attacked for it myself!
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@eloquence@social.coop 2024-08-27 19:36
@kissane@mas.to That's well put -- and often folks _have_ of course thought about the tradeoffs they themselves have chosen, but get "explained to" by others. IME, many nerdy communities (especially male-dominated ones) have similar refusal of norms cultures, so for folks who've been part of such communities it may feel easier to tolerate or even normal, but it can be very offputting. I think a culture of generosity in how we approach each other is a useful thing for any fedi community to nourish.
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@danaloi@newsie.social 2024-08-27 19:39
@kissane@mas.to yeah well it's pretty hard not to be a slave to the system as long as you want a car or a phone.
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@marcrr@ecoevo.social 2024-08-27 19:55
@kissane@mas.to Thank you! This is such a great framing, and I can definitely see that I've contributed to this in my corner of mastodon. We should try to do better.
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@WhiteCatTamer@mastodon.online 2024-08-27 20:01
@kissane@mas.to I think part of it is a tendency to increase the stakes/contrast between you and your opponent while repeating your strongest arguments that happens during a disagreement. You’ve explained yourself but your opponent Doesn’t Get It which means they are just dismissing the consequences so you’ve got to make them clearer to them. It’s a bad habit and I know I do it, too, as well as jumping into a new conversation already at that higher level. That’s when you need to walk away.
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@thefwguy@techhub.social 2024-08-27 21:13
@kissane@mas.to I read your post many times .. honestly I don't get it. I mean, I don't see the problem. Personally I like being here because remind me the magical world of the BBS, more or less same way to communicate with other people. For me is a return to the past. Then yeah, I guess I am a refuter of "norms", aka I like to think with my head. Still I don't get the killing someone because not "pure". What does mean ?
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@crazyeddie@mastodon.social 2024-08-27 21:16
@kissane@mas.to "...there will always be people popping up to tell you that by not being completely pure, you’re killing everyone." And the correct response to that is, "Well I goddamn hope so! People suck."
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@stanley@heretic.social 2024-08-27 21:31
@kissane@mas.to My reaction to folks arguing with your “it’s not your fault” statement…
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@ddutton@universeodon.com 2024-08-27 22:03
@kissane@mas.to I don't deal with people like that. I try to be a good person, but I'm not gonna have someone come along and criticize me because I haven't deleted Facebook. If anyone comes along and does that, it's just an instant block – and I wouldn't care if they are friend or family in real life. I do not use Twitter/X because I believe that platform is 1 million times worse than Facebook at this point.
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@Doctor_J_@mastodon.social 2024-08-27 22:24
@kissane@mas.to this never gets old
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@naught101@mastodon.social 2024-08-27 22:31
@kissane@mas.to which is funny, because that's just people enforcing conformity to a different set of norms.
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@susankayequinn@wandering.shop 2024-08-27 22:32
@kissane@mas.to it's one thing to be a refuser of norms and another thing to purity test and be a dick about it
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@blakeheathsnow@aus.social 2024-08-27 23:32
@kissane@mas.to For me, it's not so much a refuser of norms, rather, I seek out online environments that are more given to kindness and friendship and respectful exchange of ideas.
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@RCSM@hometech.social 2024-08-28 00:08
@kissane@mas.to This. I like social media. But I don't care to constantly hear about so many crazy things that others do. Corporations running things to get more ad-clicks and go public are why I had to find a new home from reddit since they went public. I've been off of Fb for a decade at least now, and really like mastodon and posting things about fixing my cars.
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@courtcan@mastodon.social 2024-08-28 02:12
@kissane@mas.to This is a great thread. Thank you. Online users who chastise others for failing in _________ [insert preferred cause, concept, school of thought, food choice, word choice, personal habit, etc]--those critics are no different than the church fundamentalists who condemned me to hell for enjoying fantasy/questioning doctrine/"usurping" a man's "authority"/doubting the faith, etfuckingcetera. #PurityPolice think & act the same all over, whether they're in a religion or on a fedi server.
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@agu@datasci.social 2024-08-28 03:59
@kissane@mas.to Sexual norms are set by companies and by the state. Is sex as such?
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@faerye@pie.gd 2024-08-28 04:15
@kissane@mas.to Obviously one rando popping up to say the opposite isn’t a solution or an antidote but: reading what you posted about XOXO’s precautions made me happy and wistful. I wish my communities were doing that much so I could return, and it makes me hopeful to know that ANY community is. It does nothing to block your slings and arrows, but…thanks for explaining. For some of us knowing someone did 80% or 85% on our priorities is heartening news! Makes me feel less alone. Thanks.
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@swelljoe@mas.to 2024-08-28 05:03
@kissane@mas.to I tried to explain to someone on Bluesky why someone on Mastodon would say, "I refuse to watch a YouTube video".
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@Elephant@mastodontech.de 2024-08-28 05:17
@kissane@mas.to @lisamelton@mastodon.social Loudness reaches further than consideration. In a room the people who shout are heard more than the people who keep their voices low in constructive debates in order to follow each other‘s arguments. The loud ones, the purists and extremists, do not listen. This seems to be human nature and it happens on all platforms. We have to train ourselves to ignore the loud ones and to learn from and become part of the sensible exchange.
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@Johns_priv@mastodon.social 2024-08-28 07:54
@kissane@mas.to As Groucho Marx said: "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member" So their opinion means nothing to me 😎
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@poetaster@mastodon.gamedev.place 2024-08-28 16:38
@kissane@mas.to u'm not pure. Luckily, my gf reminds me to wash my hands.
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@Bit_form@corteximplant.com 2024-08-28 18:25
@kissane@mas.to NObody can carry every cross, and anybody who claims to is a fraud. Plain and simple. Death to leftist purity. I feel like the biggest failure in this also comes in the form of not being understood by someone who doesn't interact with you normally. It's easy to misjudge the kind of interaction you have when there's no prior context to gauge the interaction first. I remember there's a paper out there about exactly this called something like "the right to be understood"
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@alys@selfy.army 2024-08-28 18:38
@kissane@mas.to i think what became very clear to me throughout the different phases of the pandemic is that even among people who have similar values and goals and acknowledge the seriousness of COVID, they're going to assess risk differently and have different tolerances for risk.
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@jjoelson@mastodon.social 2024-08-29 22:20
@kissane@mas.to @peter@thepit.social I’ve definitely noticed this. Sometimes I begin to have mean thoughts about the rubes rushing to use Threads only to realize that many people in the Fediverse probably view me as a rube for using Mastodon Dot Social.
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@daedalouseros@blahaj.zone 2024-08-30 19:29
@kissane@mas.to I recall a story of Siddhartha, after he had achieved Enlightenment, he was suddenly so aware of his every step, because he didn't wish to kill even a single insect, even by accident. But eventually, he came to realize it was inevitable that one would be caught underfoot; that it is impossible to go through this life and never cause a single ounce of suffering. And so, eventually, he let go. He just walked. Intent matters and accidents happen. Even the man who started an entire religion about minimizing the impact you have on this earth realized that you would still have one, both positive and negative. And all that really matters in the end is that your every act is done with the intent of grace and compassion. Intent matters, and I think the Left will never truly make progress until we internalize this fact. Intent fucking matters. As others have pointed out as well, we people, critters and things are limited. We only have so many hours in a day and so much energy to work with and so many resources to give. We can't all fight every battle all at once. Hong Kong is still protesting and getting fucked by the CCP, Russia is still fighting Ukraine, Israel is still genociding Gaza while Evangelical Extremists try to turn America into a fascist dictator ship and big corporations burn the earth for profit and COVID ravages the lives of everyone. So tell me: how does one person fight on a hundred fronts? Or how many battles must I fight to be "left enough?" Or will we finally accept that not everyone has to fight every battle, and that no matter how hard we try we'll always be flawed and all that matters is the same thing Siddhartha did: that our every act is done with the intent of compassion, even if they don't always hit the mark? Edit: this is to say, I agree, and am adding my thoughts to yours.